Friday, March 2, 2012

Chivalry - The Feedback

Chivalry – The Feedback
**A disclaimer.  It’s my blog and I’ll say what I want.  I try to keep it humorous and pick topics that people will discuss.  I do not consider myself a molly-Mormon, so don’t be surprised if you read some mild profanity or if I talk about things that make you blush.  I think it adds to my charm  ;)**

Let me just say, I did not expect this post to get this much feedback.  I seem to have ruffled more than just a few feathers with my thoughts.  I heard from several friends (or people I hope are still friends, haha) about their thoughts on the subject.  I was kind of surprised to see one common trend in each of their comments:
Nice guys finish last

Here are some examples –
Females have trained Males over a long time to act in a way the gets a positive response from women. Unfortunately this way of treating girls, as many guys and I am sure some girls will agree, is to act like jerks. Girls love the bad boy jerk!”
“My opinion is that there are LOTS more nice guys than there are jerk guys, but girls have been very focused on the "jerk" guys.”
“It’s dead.  Girls want money and bad boys w good hearts.  Lol…”

So do I agree with this?  Yes…and no…
Let’s start with the comment that men do things to get a positive response from women.  A lot of times I think this is very true.  It reminds me of an episode of friends where Mark is helping Rachel get a job for no apparent reason.  Ross thinks there is an ulterior motive and to prove his point he asks Joey “Do men do nice things for women for no reason?” to which Joey immediately replies “No, only for sex”.
Granted in the LDS world, sex isn’t just out there as a thank you (well at least for most girls), but it still speaks a lot of how I perceive men to work.  Pretty girl – do something nice for her – positive reaction from pretty girl.  It’s pretty straight forward.  Unfortunately, too many guys have done too many things for girls, only to get the cold shoulder from them.  If they get this reaction over and over, why should they continue to put the effort out there?  This is a very valid argument.

Now to address the “girls only like bad boys” issue.  Is this true?  Yes…and no…
Unfortunately, most women have a part of the brain that makes us only be attracted to douche bags.  I think it’s located in the same part of the mans brain that makes them only be attracted to the “hot chick”, no matter how bat sh!# crazy she may be  J
For women, we eventually grow out of this phase and move on to looking for good guys, but it takes us a lot of time and a lot of heartbreak before we get there.  But I think guys need to understand, we are looking for a good guy, with just a bit of a bad boy edge.  If a guy is too nice, he runs the risk of coming off as a “leg humper” or spineless.  Ever see the movie “Bedazzled” with Brendan Frazier?  This is one of my favorite movies and I think it explains a lot about how women think.  The part with the super sensitive guy on the beach is the perfect example.  We need that balance of nice guys who will be kind to us, but will stand up for himself and be a man when needed.  Confused?  Of course.  We’re women, we are confusing.  But we’re cute, which helps.  And we have boobs, which guys seem to like.  I guess that’s enough to keep you coming back  J
A little more feedback I got –
Holding the door open –
I got some feedback from my friend Eric on this one “Women trying to enforce archaic and outdated demonstrations of chivalry because it makes them feel special”.  Ouch, and touché.  Yep, it makes me feel good about myself when a guy holds the door open for me.  Maybe that’s wrong of me.  I have no argument for this one.  And I promise Eric isn’t as bitter and hostile as that comment made him out to seem  J
I hold the door open for people.  I like when people hold the door open for me.  This is just something I think everyone should do, regardless if the person is 8 or 80.  I wish more people did it.
Opening her car door –
Let me just make my opinion clear about this one.  This is not something that makes or breaks a date for me.  If he doesn’t open my car door, I’m fine.  If he opens my car door, that’s nice.  Actually one of the worst dates I had with one of the biggest jerks ever was with a guy who made a point to open all doors for me.  This is not a move that will tell you if he is a good guy or not.  When we are getting out of the car, I don’t think he need to have me wait so he can open it for me.
This whole thing is something I think girls make WAY too big of a deal about.
Setting Up and Taking Down Tables and Chairs –
This got some interesting feedback.  I think my friend Cody made a good point when he told me
Being one of the only ones that would stay back and help clean up, I was segregated from the group, any girls that I was interested in were now off with other guys (the competition) getting face time, while I was back doing the dirty work. Never once was I recognized as the guy who went the extra mile while other lazy people walked away. And by recognized I am referring to girls recognizing me. This is the reason why guys do not stay back and clean up, because who wants to do extra work and not receive the acknowledgment from the member of the opposite sex when all they have to do is walk away with them and do nothing. Too many times my friend has gotten the girl because I stayed back and they enjoyed the rest of the night with the girl.
A point I want to make is that these obviously were not the girls you were supposed to end up with.  I know, it sounds totally “after school special” about respecting yourself, but I think it’s the truth.  If guys are going to give us crap for going after the bad boy, I’m going to give you a hard time about going after a girl who clearly isn’t looking for the good qualities you possess.  Keep being the good guy and I promise that the right person will come around.
I also want to bring up one other kind of good guy I forgot to mention in my last post – The Good Dad.  As I get more involved in the mid-singles scene, I have met a lot of divorced people.  People that have been thru difficult, heartbreaking divorce.  One of the things that has surprised me is how many devoted fathers I have met.  Men that have full or majority custody of their kids.  Men that devote all of their time and energy into being the best father they can be.  Men, who some of their children are not even biologically their own, but they love them with all their hearts.  Men, who thru the awful things they have been thru, have stayed strong in the church and continue to serve.  This is a level of commitment I respect far more than any guy just holding a door open for me.
So feel free to give me your comments about this one.  I’ve spoken my mind so I won’t be offended if you do the same  J

6 comments:

  1. Dude. Seriously. This is awesome. You really have this nailed down. I'll be directing some traffic your way.

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  2. Interesting points. On the first topic, I think there is a big difference between a nice guy who is motivated and sure of himself and a nice guy who isn't. The first is very attractive to many women. The second is not.

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  3. I think that this has been an interesting series of posts. Girls do grow out of the "bad boy" phase, even if it takes a little getting used to. I am now dating a really great guy and one of the things that attracts me most about him is that he is outwardly considerate of other people. He always takes his dishes to the sink, in fast food places he makes sure the table is clean before leaving, and with me he is kind and chivalrous. That kind of respect has been lacking in my life, and at first I didn't really know how to feel about it. But now I appreciate him for his kindness and respect and it sets him apart from all the other men in my life.

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  4. Seriously, treat a guy like a puppy, especially when it comes to the "getting to know each other" phase. Consider how you would react if a puppy did the equivalent to what a guy does for you (if he does anything at all), and that's what kind of attention he's looking for back from you. This does NOT mean treat him like he's incompetent. Just because guys have a Pavlovian response to what they do for a gal, it doesn't mean we're stupid and/or relying on hormones (all of the time).

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  5. You know, it's interesting (and very presumptive) to dictate what acts are kindness and what are not. Recognize the intention behind it, even if it's awkward.

    Guys, recognize that if it's awkward for her, it's presumptive of you to be frustrated by it. The attitude of, "This is what kindness is, she should know that and appreciate it," is also frustrating. I grew up in a home with an Indian dad (who had the cultural expectation that his wife serves him). So I've never been taught that opening doors and such is important or even really appropriate. That said, I appreciate your kindness. But that doesn't make my experience wrong. And I can still be awkward about it if I want to be.

    Comes down to the principle that you can love someone the way that you know to love, but the higher order is trying to love them in the way they want to be loved.

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  6. May I offer some words of advice from lots of experience (that doesn't mean all good)? I think they way a guy treats a girl on a date is irrelevant. Most men (especially in the church) are taught to be well behaved on dates. If they haven't they will not go after a well behaved girl unless they think they can corrupt her, which efforts will not last very long. Let me use a different word for chivalry...respectful. If you want to see a true personality look at how he respects those he interracts with. This can be anyone, at anytime, in any situation. This is who he truly is, he obviously will be nice to his date or he is a grade "A" deusch. And guys, if you really feel like you have to try to do little things to keep her happy, run fast. She is too high maintenance for anyone that's not a creepy old guy wanting a trophy wife. Personal experience: I recently was chastised by my roomates boyfriend for not buying roses for valentines day.(I'm engaged btw, he is not). The globetrotters happened to be in town so we decided our valentines date would be going to the game. we are both sports people, especially me. It was something we could do together that we thought would be fun. I was told that was a ridiculous idea. It wasn't romantic or meaningful in anyway. And was I really that cheap I couldn't even buy some type of gift? not even flowers or chocolate? Those tickets were not cheap, and ya know what she thought it was great and it was enough. He was so caught in the view of having to do specific romantic things or you will be in trouble...ITS A LIE. Now that being said his girlfriend happens to be one of the most self centered and obnoxious nose in the air girls I have met so that's his own fault. I guess they work. I have dated a lot of girls and really I found if I have to go out of my way to please her, she isn't worth my time.I should please her, she should please me, just us and that's enough. Then when you do something on top of that its special and a way to show your feelings, not a way to make sure you aren't in trouble or a way to get some. If that's your mindset, you're wrong. If all you want is some play there are plenty of girls willing to do anything and all you gotta do is show up, just find one of them and save yourself the time and money...sorry that was kinda long, I had a moment.

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